Ep. 4 - Get Comfortable With Conflict w/ Scilla Elworthy
TRANSCRIPT:
[00:00:00] Susan: Hi, everyone. I'm so excited to bring you this conversation with the amazing Scilla Elworthy, Get Comfortable With Conflict. What I did with my book chapters of Collaborative Hardball is basically each chapter is trying to articulate an aspect of what it means to negotiate and resolve conflict more from bringing forth the feminine in balance with the masculine.
[00:00:27] Susan: And the podcast episodes, as you know, are filling out each of those chapters, not repeating them, but really enriching them with conversations with some amazing people. So Scilla will talk to us about what it means to get comfortable with conflict, and she has worked in some of the most intense war zones and high-level situations.
[00:00:51] Susan: This is a message, I think, getting comfortable with conflict, that is especially important for the female half of humanity. Carol Gilligan, the Harvard theorist long ag-ago said, summarized that, and I've repeated it many times, that patriarchy created a violence in men and silence in women, which of course hasn't worked for any of us.
[00:01:19] Susan: And both men and women, people need to rewind that message, that acculturation. A conflict obviously is not a bad thing, but how we deal with it can be horrible. This is particularly true. I mean, conflict is not going away. It's been a growth industry for a long time, and this is especially true now as the Earth's margins are getting strained by greedy billionaires, now trillionaires, who are not understanding how they're contributing to humanity and the planet.
[00:01:54] Susan: And we, people have not yet gathered the political will to stop them. This is increasingly important, I believe, for women to get that political will, not that we are unique, but just simply that that silence of our past is going away and needs... I think we're getting louder, and I think we need to get louder and more skilled even still.
[00:02:20] Susan: So I spoke to Scilla in 2018 on the Peace Building podcast, and then I am speaking again to her here. I started this conversation with a reflection on what has happened in those eight years since 2018. You know, both the glass half empty parts, which are depressing or can be depressing, they are depressing, and the glass filling up parts, which are exciting and motivating.
[00:02:50] Susan: A lot of really wonderful things are happening. So about Scilla, she is a three times Nobel Peace Prize nominee for her work with the Oxford Research Group to develop effective dialogue between nuclear weapons policymakers worldwide and their critics. She founded Peace Direct to fund, promote, and learn from local peace builders in conflict areas.
[00:03:17] Susan: She founded the Business Plan for Peace to help prevent violent conflict and build sustainable peace. She co-founded Rising Women Rising World, FemQ in 2016 to establish the qualities of feminine intelligence for women and men as essential to use in building a safer world. She has been working recently on how women leaders stop wars and on and on.
[00:03:45] Susan: She is an amazing force, has been an inspiration to so many of us, and I will put her full bio in the show notes. So this is a practical, highly practical, and very profound conversation using breath, listening, and courage in face of some of the most threatening conflict situations. I know you will find it useful to focus on it for our brief conversation.
[00:04:14] Susan: Thank you so much for listening, and I bring you Scilla Elworthy.
[00:04:23] Susan: Hello, it's so nice to see you
[00:04:25] Scilla Elworthy: And you, Susan
[00:04:27] Susan: Yes
[00:04:27] Scilla Elworthy: Tell me a tiny bit about yourself just before we start because I don't know about you
[00:04:32] Susan: Well, let's see. What could I tell you about me? I've been in this field for a long time Mm-hmm The field I guess I would call peace and conflict, negotiation, mediation, whatever you might wanna call it.
[00:04:44] Susan: I was trained as a lawyer, but I wasn't that thrilled with the whole process of litigation. I also wanted to have a family. I ended up having two children. What else could I tell you about me? I'm a risk-taker. But yeah, I guess I would say that I'm somebody who from the age of, I think I can trace it to the age of about 10- Mm-hmm
[00:05:13] Susan: maybe 12. I read All Quiet on the Western Front when I was a really young kid Mm And it really- Yeah ... I guess it really moved me. And I was... I, I trace my activism from then. And then of course, I was born in 1955 Mm-hmm I grew up during the time of the American Vietnam War Mm It was being broadcast to all of us as we sat around eating dinner with our parents, you know And, uh, that really shaped me.
[00:05:46] Susan: And, um, it shaped pretty much every choice that I made, I would say. And, um, yeah, so I think I've been pretty focused on that throughout my life, even though I'm not sure I always took the best route. But I didn't, I didn't do badly. I've ta- I made a, a number of big swings towards more, a more just world.
[00:06:07] Susan: Mm-hmm. I did, I set up the UN's conflict resolution program.
[00:06:11] Scilla Elworthy: I thought you did that.
[00:06:12] Susan: Yeah. And rolled that around the world. It was an internal conflict, but we did both. It was a big initiative and- Mm ... I went to, uh, pretty much all duty stations around the world. I went to a lot of war zones. Mm. Um, been to a lot of peacekeeping missions.
[00:06:29] Susan: And I also come from a family, has also shaped me probably a lot, as our families tend to. I come from a colonial family in the ... I was born in New York City. My, I am a direct descendant of Peter Stuyvesant, who was the first- Sure ... governor of New York. I think it's, I'm his 11th great-granddaughter or whatever it, what number it might be.
[00:06:54] Susan: And I, I never felt mixed about that. I think he was quite the slave trader, quite the... But, um, my daughter, who is gay, queer-identified, thinks that he also maybe was queer himself, and, uh, and I don't know. You know, you never know. He obviously, during, it was during his tenure that New York shifted from being New Amsterdam to being New York.
[00:07:18] Susan: And my family goes right back. But then, of course, I live in a place that has, I was just talking about it, you know, it's been shaped first by- A mile high of ice 15,000 years ago to 12,000 years ago, Native Americans living here, to Europeans pretty much disenfranchising indigenous people of their land and pushing them west.
[00:07:43] Susan: The descendants now in, are in Wisconsin.
[00:07:47] Scilla Elworthy: Hence the work that you do now. Yeah,
[00:07:49] Susan: yeah. Yeah.
[00:07:51] Scilla Elworthy: Well done.
[00:07:51] Susan: Yeah.
[00:07:52] Scilla Elworthy: Maximum respect.
[00:07:54] Susan: Well, you know, and the reason as, you know, I wrote... I, I thought it was so interesting, Scilla, when I looked back on... I don't know if you remember this, but I interviewed you eight years ago.
[00:08:03] Susan: I had a podcast called The Peace Building Podcast. Mm-hmm. And it focused on interventions to build common ground, because I had done some pretty interesting work using open space to resolve conflict using lots of different large group facilitation methods. Anyway, I interviewed you exactly, almost to the day, eight years ago.
[00:08:23] Scilla Elworthy: Oh. And- I, I do remember it vaguely, but my memory's not so good now, so I haven't got a clear picture of it.
[00:08:31] Susan: Well, that's okay. You probably, you can get rid of things that you don't wanna remember, or something like that. But anyway, I thought it made me reflect- Mm ... on what's happened over the last eight years- Mm
[00:08:45] Susan: because that was a great, for me, it was a great conversation. Since then, I've written a book called Collaborative Hardball, which hopefully... I was so irritated, I sent you a copy with, you know, at great expense with our stupid postal service, and you said you never got it. I did send you the PDF, so I know, I think you got that.
[00:09:03] Susan: Yes. So, um- I, I
[00:09:04] Scilla Elworthy: have that, yes, the PDF. Th-
[00:09:05] Susan: this is what I thought about when I thought about the eight years ago. I, I first thought about, like, all the bleak stuff, and when I wrote the book, I had scanned the planet and said, "Okay, what stands out to me?" And it was a rapidly heating planet, the Doomsday Clock clicking ever closer to midnight, the struggle between democracy and authoritarianism, and, uh, the persistent gender inequality, racial inequality, income inequality.
[00:09:40] Susan: Mm-hmm. I didn't mention AI at that moment because AI was just beginning. Even eight years ago, it wasn't what it is now. Mm-hmm. And I, I said in the book, what connects these things is what I called a patriarchal world culture. And I know you didn't love that phrase, patriarchy, but anyway, I think you certainly know what I'm talking about.
[00:10:02] Susan: I do indeed. And so using those criteria, you know, I think, okay, what's happened in the last eight years? You know, there've been Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Gaza, the wider Middle East. Billionaires have now become trillionaires. The rapidly accelerating impact of climate, of a planet- Misogyny, sexual violence, racism, the Epstein files, you know, the manosphere becoming very present to all of us, AI, this power over paradigm, whatever, showing itself.
[00:10:41] Susan: So of course, it's really easy to get upset. But then I, you know, give the floor to you, but I just thought I would start this way because then, of course, there are many amazing things that have been happening, and so I want to talk about those too 'cause I know you and I both know the power of focusing on strength and what's happening that's working.
[00:11:03] Susan: So these were the things that I identified, that patriarchy is becoming much easier to see. I, I... It used to be a word that I even didn't wanna say. Now it seems to be all over the place. Even mainstream media, you know, they talk about the patriarchy, and it's like, oh, my God. Okay, things have changed.
[00:11:19] Susan: There's much more evidence of how much women's presence contributes to both peace, thanks to a lot of the work that you've done, to a sustainable future, to regenerativity, and, um, you know, just how critical that is. The power of indigenous voices growing all over the planet, and I think a shifting awareness that we are nature.
[00:11:47] Susan: We're not separate from nature, and that's a, you know, like one of the messages I'm constantly hearing from indigenous voices. We are still here, and by the way, human beings are nature, you know? That solar and wind are rapidly undermining fossil fuels, you know? In spite of big oil's election of Donald Trump and their just unbelievable evil- Mm-hmm
[00:12:13] Susan: uh, pursuit of getting their oil out of the ground in spite of what it's doing to the planet. But I think maybe we have the Iran situation to thank for an increase in the recognition of the power of wind and solar. That people have mu-much greater understanding about trauma than ever before and the recycling effects of trauma.
[00:12:36] Susan: That queer and non-binary people are very much more present as they always have been, but they're showing up.
[00:12:44] Scilla Elworthy: Now they're being recognized, yes.
[00:12:48] Susan: A- and I'm almost done with this list, that young men, but men in general, I think are much more emotionally literate than the men in my father's generation and my brother, it-
[00:13:02] Scilla Elworthy: With some massive exceptions that
[00:13:04] Susan: are- With some massive exceptions.
[00:13:05] Susan: Yeah. I mean, of course we are being inundated by very childish billionaire trillionaires, and that women are not having it. I mean, it's interesting. I was in a, getting my hair cut a while ago and, and, um, and the topic of the Epstein files came up, and across the board, all these different women, you know, the hair washers, the hairdressers, the, like, very working class, very, you know, like for people that had more mo- everybody was like, "We are not having this."
[00:13:35] Susan: So it was just like, I think in general women are, and men are not having this. It's, in short, the old power story, I think is really breaking apart in spite of the fact that it's also really trying to assert itself simultaneously.
[00:13:52] Scilla Elworthy: Yes. Yes.
[00:13:53] Susan: So, you know, what I asked you to talk about, but I want you to talk about whatever you want to talk about.
[00:13:59] Susan: But the launch or the touchstone was getting comfortable with conflict, the need to get comfortable with conflict, and particularly maybe the need for women to get particularly comfortable with conflict because patriarchy has been violent, and I think women have been frightened by it, rightfully so. But we need strength, we need clarity, and we need to get comfortable with it.
[00:14:24] Susan: So-
[00:14:25] Scilla Elworthy: I hope to embellish what you're saying with a number of examples.
[00:14:29] Susan: Yeah. So please.
[00:14:32] Scilla Elworthy: I think the interesting question that you put to me was, uh, how do women use the power of negotiation to change the world? And what matters obviously is how we deal with conflicts that can arise from scarce resources, injustice, harassment, greed, insult, injury And then faced with conflict, we can choose between two strategies, main strategies of negotiation, either competition or collaboration.
[00:15:12] Scilla Elworthy: Now, competition usually exacerbates, in my experience, the division, the greed, the insult, the injury, all the things that happen when people feel unheard. Whereas collaboration, which sounds rather good, it requires something really difficult, that we listen for the needs of the other person, and that's difficult to do- Yeah
[00:15:40] Scilla Elworthy: when you are in a conflict. And we, as you've s- said earlier, we communicate non-aggressively, and that's doubly hard when the other person is bullying or threatening or constantly interrupting.
[00:15:57] Susan: Mm.
[00:15:58] Scilla Elworthy: And as you know and I know, many women and girls worldwide have been and are being reared in powerlessness.
[00:16:07] Scilla Elworthy: It's very challenging for them to develop any authority or even find their voice. Mm. So schools and educators can spend valuable time coaching young women to express themselves and to express their needs clearly and calmly as their right. So how do we do this? Well, you're gonna be surprised by this one.
[00:16:35] Scilla Elworthy: My absolute key to authority is to breathe- Hmm ... when you're in a difficult situation- Yeah ... because this immediately centers your body And allows you to straighten up instead of crouching anxiously. And the breathing gives you practice. Practice with your teachers, practice with your family. But to actually practice the ability to breathe when things are tough.
[00:17:12] Susan: Mm.
[00:17:12] Scilla Elworthy: It sounds easy, but it's not. And
[00:17:15] Susan: the- Of course, you even say that, and of course I start breathing more deeply. Which I think
[00:17:21] Scilla Elworthy: is- Right. Well, it's, it gives us a different dimension.
[00:17:24] Susan: Mm.
[00:17:25] Scilla Elworthy: And the second key to authority will surprise you even more. And this is in an argument. It is to listen. Why should you listen to a bully, somebody who's shouting at you or bullying you?
[00:17:39] Scilla Elworthy: Your attention and your ability then calmly to repeat back what you've heard will knock the socks off everyone. Here's somebody talking at you aggressively, insulting you, undermining you, and you repeat back what you've heard, and possibly what you felt. And that changes the atmosphere completely from harassment and shouting to, oh What did he say?
[00:18:12] Scilla Elworthy: What did she say? So this can open the way to you as the recipient of this aggressivity to being able to state calmly how you see the picture. You've opened a space for yourself. The other person has had their space.
[00:18:30] Susan: Mm.
[00:18:31] Scilla Elworthy: And people will be listening to you by now because you're interesting and your voice is calm and it's got authority.
[00:18:39] Scilla Elworthy: So if I may, let me tell you a true story.
[00:18:42] Susan: Please.
[00:18:43] Scilla Elworthy: In the 1990s, I led a delegation of British military leaders to talk to their opposite numbers in China. This had never happened before.
[00:18:54] Susan: Mm.
[00:18:54] Scilla Elworthy: At the first meeting, the Chinese general on the other side of the table, who was leading his men, all very high-ranking men, and he was talking and talking very rapidly, and the interpreters, bless them, couldn't keep up.
[00:19:12] Scilla Elworthy: He clearly intended to lead the entire discussion. So my delegation was understanding nothing. Zero. Hopeless. I realized someone had to say something, and that someone was me. So I cleared my throat and I said, "Our delegates very much wish to respond to what he'd said." He was incandescent with rage. I don't think he'd ever been interrupted.
[00:19:43] Scilla Elworthy: And he was banging the table and shouting. I thought, "Oh, dear. I've caused an international incident." And then he continued with his speech. So I thought, "Well, what do I do now?" So I nudged the admiral on my right in my team to ask a question which, bless him, he did, announcing it as an exchange of views.
[00:20:08] Scilla Elworthy: And then everything changed because our group were having a chance to speak, to ask questions, and the general was allowing some of his underlings to speak as well. So at dinnertime, I was seated next to this general and I learned that he'd led Chinese troops in wars for 40 years of his military career, hardly ever seeing his family.
[00:20:39] Susan: Wow.
[00:20:41] Scilla Elworthy: I listened with care and I said how much I felt for his suffering-
[00:20:47] Susan: Mm ...
[00:20:49] Scilla Elworthy: for not being able to see his family grow up. He stopped talking and he looked at me He saw a person and not an enemy. Not somebody he had to beat. And he began to say more about the suffering of himself and his men. He went pale, and tears came down his face.
[00:21:13] Susan: Wow. Wow.
[00:21:14] Scilla Elworthy: This general, I, I don't think he'd ever been seen-
[00:21:17] Susan: Wow ...
[00:21:17] Scilla Elworthy: with tears on his face.
[00:21:18] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:21:19] Scilla Elworthy: And I was absolutely amazed. Mm. Ev- everybody was sort of, "Uh."
[00:21:23] Susan: So other people were noticing it as well.
[00:21:25] Scilla Elworthy: Everybody could see this. Mm-hmm. So what he did then, which was wonderful , he called for the waiter and ordered a cake to celebrate our understanding.
[00:21:39] Scilla Elworthy: I was amazed. Completely amazed. Um-
[00:21:43] Susan: Sorry, you told... Where, where was this happening? You t- I think you said, but no, no.
[00:21:46] Scilla Elworthy: In Beijing.
[00:21:47] Susan: In Beijing, okay.
[00:21:48] Scilla Elworthy: In China. And we'd had a, a previous thing to this, which might also amuse your listeners, that when we first arrived, we touched down, and we were expecting to be able to go and rest at the hotel.
[00:22:00] Scilla Elworthy: Not a bit of it. We were expected in the Great Hall of the People. I don't know if you've ever... Have you been to China?
[00:22:06] Susan: Uh, I've been to Shanghai. Mm.
[00:22:08] Scilla Elworthy: Been to Shanghai. Well, the Great Hall of the People is what you'd imagine. It's huge.
[00:22:12] Susan: Mm.
[00:22:12] Scilla Elworthy: We had to be there in half an hour, so we rushed to the hotel, changed, and turned up.
[00:22:19] Scilla Elworthy: And we were walking up this, um, hall, which was, I don't know, the, the si- well, probably the width of the Empire State Building. I don't know. It was very, very big. And I was accompanied by a general, an admiral, an air vice marshal, and the other military that I'd persuaded to come with me. And our host walked towards us very grandly, put out his hand to the general on my right, and said, "Dr.
[00:22:47] Scilla Elworthy: Elworthy, I presume?" So the last thing he'd expected was a woman. Mm-hmm.
[00:22:54] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:22:55] Scilla Elworthy: And that made everybody laugh, so.
[00:22:57] Susan: Right.
[00:22:57] Scilla Elworthy: Uh, it softened the, the atmosphere at least. Right.
[00:23:00] Susan: Mm.
[00:23:01] Scilla Elworthy: So I do always fall back when I remember to, in an argument, when things are tough with family or with, with colleagues even, just to allow my body to move and to stretch, and breathing, as you just said, allows that.
[00:23:24] Scilla Elworthy: Mm. It, it enables that- Mm ... if you like.
[00:23:26] Susan: Mm.
[00:23:27] Scilla Elworthy: And you can be your full real self. Mm. And then what will come out of your mouth is true, or much more true- Mm ... in my experience- Mm ... than a simple speech, because you'll be connecting with those- Mm ... that you, you want to reach.
[00:23:47] Susan: Mm-hmm, at a human level. Yeah.
[00:23:49] Scilla Elworthy: Yeah. Mm.
[00:23:50] Susan: Is there any follow-up?
[00:23:52] Susan: So he started... At the dinner, he turned to Ash and then started to cry. And anything after that? Yeah
[00:23:59] Scilla Elworthy: He rather quickly ordered cake
[00:24:01] Susan: Oh, yeah, that's right. You said ordered cake, yeah
[00:24:03] Scilla Elworthy: Ordered cake, and everybody had cake, and there was some, it was called toasting of him- Uh-huh ... which was good because he recovered his posture, his persona
[00:24:14] Susan: Mm.
[00:24:15] Scilla Elworthy: Um, but I'll never forget this man's face- Mm ...
[00:24:17] Susan: and
[00:24:18] Scilla Elworthy: his talking about his war experiences- Mm ... and, and the agony of not being able to see his children grow up
[00:24:26] Susan: Mm-hmm
[00:24:27] Scilla Elworthy: So he became a human to me-
[00:24:30] Susan: Mm ...
[00:24:30] Scilla Elworthy: and at the same time I became a human to him-
[00:24:34] Susan: Mm ...
[00:24:34] Scilla Elworthy: instead of this tiresome, uppity woman from London
[00:24:38] Susan: Mm. So Sila, one of the things, so in terms of getting comfortable with conflict, one of the things you're talking about is the power of breath as a starting place.
[00:24:48] Susan: Mm. And then the power of listening, and I think you've spoken a lot on the power of listening, and the power of the heart in listening. And I will say, one of the things I say in my book is that an aspect of this that may be a nuance is that sometimes women can, I think, over-listen too Because we don't really know how to focus on ourselves sometimes and get our own needs met and bring them into the conversation.
[00:25:15] Susan: And I wonder if you have any comments about that, about what is really good listening and what is what you might consider over-listening.
[00:25:26] Scilla Elworthy: Well, really good listening to me is that I focus and put my eyes on the person who's speaking, and I try to really understand where his or her speech is coming from, especially if it's controversial-
[00:25:42] Susan: Mm
[00:25:42] Scilla Elworthy: or argumentative or even angry.
[00:25:44] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:25:45] Scilla Elworthy: And then I, I just ask for a moment. I say, "Could I have a moment? Let me feed back to you what I, I think you've said, and you can correct me if I'm wrong." And as you well know, that changes things because if they have to hear in their head what they've said, sometimes they're very embarrassed by it.
[00:26:09] Scilla Elworthy: And they didn't want to scream or shout.
[00:26:12] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:26:13] Scilla Elworthy: And so that shifts it a little. Rather than my interrupting him or her with my truth and my righteousness, I'm inviting him or her to hear themselves, and then the opportunity arises to pick up something that they've said which was helpful or controversial-
[00:26:36] Susan: Mm
[00:26:37] Scilla Elworthy: and open it up to the group so that I'm not stealing his thunder. I'm rather allowing his bon mot, his wisdom, if it was wise and rarely so, to be forefront or for people to discuss it.
[00:26:56] Susan: Mm.
[00:26:57] Scilla Elworthy: Um, so it, it does lead to a more of, um- An even atmosphere in the way voices are heard or not heard. Mm-hmm.
[00:27:08] Susan: Yeah. It certainly, if you do want your voice to be heard, of course, one of the best ways to get there is to first hear theirs and hear it well.
[00:27:18] Susan: Um-
[00:27:18] Scilla Elworthy: Yeah.
[00:27:18] Susan: Exactly ... and I wonder, you know, I sometimes think there's, in listening, particularly in conflict, that I'm listening for needs, not for positions. Because I think sometimes if I'm listening at the positional level, like what they want, I c- I might reinforce it in a way that doesn't really help. But if I am able to go to a deeper level of what they really are needing, what their interests are, and sometimes what they're feeling, that's a l- can be a little tricky depending on who you're talking to.
[00:27:49] Susan: Some people don't like you to expose their, or come up with what you think their feelings are. But sometimes it's really powerful to do that. Yeah. That adds an element of good listening and that I think leaves room for a negotiation to occur because at the level of interest and needs, there isn't necessarily polarization.
[00:28:09] Susan: At the level of position, there probably is.
[00:28:12] Scilla Elworthy: Yes. And also, it allows the other people in the room or in the discussion to learn more about what that person really means- Mm-hmm ... uh, because they've been invited to slightly enlarge on it. Mm-hmm. And then as you say, having done that, if one is the chair or, or convening- To then ask another person to have the same opportunity so that it gets more, more even.
[00:28:43] Scilla Elworthy: But if there is still animosity in the room and challenge, then there are a number of things that one can do. They don't always work, but I don't know about you, but I don't really believe in defusing anger, 'cause I don't think one can. I think anger has to be appreciated-
[00:29:05] Susan: Mm ...
[00:29:05] Scilla Elworthy: as an evidence of how much that person cares.
[00:29:08] Scilla Elworthy: Um-
[00:29:09] Susan: Well, I think that one way to defuse anger... I- if somebody's angry, usually they feel they have not been seen, they have not been- Mm ... respected, they have not been heard. And so if you listen well, you in the moment are actually giving them something that will address that need right there and then if you do it well, which will- Yeah
[00:29:28] Susan: deescalate it, I think. Um-
[00:29:30] Scilla Elworthy: Yes, that's, that's true. Some people are so desperate to get their voice heard that they'll, they'll go on and on.
[00:29:37] Susan: Yeah.
[00:29:37] Scilla Elworthy: But hopefully, you know, it will become more of a discussion that way, yes.
[00:29:43] Susan: Sila, do you have anything to say? You know, I do think that women have a particular role to play here.
[00:29:50] Susan: Then you've done a lot of work about how women leaders stop wars, and you said to me in our c- correspondence you wanted to talk about that, and I don't know if you do, but I mean, I've been following your work around this. And I don't necessarily think that we know that women are more collaborative than men, although I think we kinda are in terms of our...
[00:30:09] Susan: Well, that's a longer conversation. Let's just say that we are. And if we are, or that we've been holding back in terms of being in public life- Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm ... and that we are, in my view, a untapped, the largest untapped resource on the planet- Mm-hmm ... for coming forward and really... L- we have a bunch of entitled, falsely empowered, entitled five-year-old men who are running the show.
[00:30:36] Susan: Mm. Correct. And they got raised by somebody, and they got enabled by women. And I will just say. So I don't know, I think that, I think that women have a particular, a critical role here at this point in time to shift what's happening on this planet. And I don't know if you... I think you agree with me about that, and I wonder if you could speak to that.
[00:30:57] Scilla Elworthy: Oh, oh, I, I do. I think it's emerging quite fast now, and that's why I've been watching out to find stories of how women have actually stopped on conflict. Yeah. Because when I put that question to my male colleagues, they kind of go, "Hmm, I don't think so." And I've got six examples now, some current, some, uh, a few years ago.
[00:31:24] Scilla Elworthy: Well, from Northern Ireland, for example, when the Catholic and the Protestant women leaders- Were brave enough to walk down the street together. I mean, it's hard to imagine how-
[00:31:37] Susan: Mm ...
[00:31:38] Scilla Elworthy: violent the feeling was- Mm ... between Protestant and Catholic, but Betty Williams and Mairead Maguire walked down the main street of Belfast, and I know it well, and they mobilized that way over 10,000- Wow
[00:31:53] Scilla Elworthy: Catholic and Protestant women to march with them.
[00:31:57] Susan: Mm.
[00:31:57] Scilla Elworthy: And they did that from 1974 to 1980. For six years- Wow ... they did that.
[00:32:05] Susan: Wow.
[00:32:06] Scilla Elworthy: And they won the Nobel Peace Prize for it. Mm.
[00:32:08] Susan: Wow. And
[00:32:09] Scilla Elworthy: they stopped the conflict.
[00:32:10] Susan: Yeah. Wow.
[00:32:11] Scilla Elworthy: There's wonderful examples from Kenya. I'm just looking down my list from... I won't go through them all.
[00:32:18] Scilla Elworthy: Colombia, Philippines, and what you'll remember about women surrounding the military base at Greenham Common in the UK.
[00:32:26] Susan: Actually, I don't know that story.
[00:32:28] Scilla Elworthy: Oh, well, there was a very controversial sighting of nuclear cruise missiles- Mm ... being placed-
[00:32:39] Susan: Mm ...
[00:32:39] Scilla Elworthy: at a military base-
[00:32:40] Susan: Mm ...
[00:32:41] Scilla Elworthy: at a place called Greenham Common.
[00:32:42] Susan: Mm.
[00:32:43] Scilla Elworthy: And that's not very far from where I live. And I heard the rumor that women were going to come and protest, and I thought, "What are they gonna do?" You know. And this was a long time ago. I mean, it was in the 1990s. So I went down to meet them. I walked 25, 30 miles to meet them, and walked back with them to Greenham Common.
[00:33:05] Scilla Elworthy: And when we got there- That's quite a walk,
[00:33:07] Susan: 25, 30 miles. Good for you.
[00:33:11] Scilla Elworthy: Well, when we got back to the base, it was entirely surrounded by women holding hands.
[00:33:18] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:19] Scilla Elworthy: They were already... They, the word had got out, and there were over 1,200 women there holding hands, and it was called Embrace the Base.
[00:33:30] Susan: Mm.
[00:33:30] Scilla Elworthy: So this is...
[00:33:31] Scilla Elworthy: I thought this is a daft expression, you know, because it makes us look- Like, uh, just soppy women embracing the base. But boy, did the media get it.
[00:33:41] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:33:42] Scilla Elworthy: It went on headlines-
[00:33:44] Susan: Mm. -
[00:33:45] Scilla Elworthy: or not just all over England-
[00:33:46] Susan: Mm. -
[00:33:46] Scilla Elworthy: but all over Europe. And as a result, these missiles were removed from that base-
[00:33:54] Susan: Mm. -
[00:33:55] Scilla Elworthy: a few years later.
[00:33:56] Scilla Elworthy: Mm. So the women managed to achieve what they went there for and what they got-
[00:34:03] Susan: Mm. -
[00:34:04] Scilla Elworthy: cold, wet, and miserable- Mm. -s- staying in the, in the rain.
[00:34:07] Susan: Wow.
[00:34:08] Scilla Elworthy: Mm-hmm.
[00:34:09] Susan: Could you talk about courage? Because when I wrote this book and when I thought about the big picture of all this, look at what did, um, Carol Gilligan s- said something like, "Patriarchy creates violence in men and silence in women."
[00:34:24] Susan: A- and I think, you know, when you think over the millennia, we have, we women, have, uh, uh, we've lost our voices, and we are regaining them, I think, and have been regaining them steadily. I- in the United States, of course, it's a mess here, as you d- I mean, I don't need to tell you, but it's scary too. It's scary.
[00:34:49] Susan: I'm somebody who speaks up, but I think, and people say, "Gee, Susan, are you..." And I'm like, I'm-- You look it. I'm a white, relatively affluent, a European white, you know, woman. If I can't speak up, who the heck can speak up? So I think there's been, one of the things that's been ex- maybe, I don't know if I can call it exciting, but maybe different than what was going on in, in Nazi Germany, is that there's a lot of resistance going on here.
[00:35:17] Susan: There's a lot, in the United States, there's a lot of pushback on, uh, this fascist takeover that seems to be underway and, or fascist project, e- uh, eh, whatever. But it does take courage, and I think for w- women particularly, we can have a lot of moral gravity, but we need courage to use it. You've been courageous.
[00:35:41] Susan: So I don't know if you would like to speak to that quality, where you've gotten it from.
[00:35:47] Scilla Elworthy: I come from a military family
[00:35:50] Susan: Oh, I didn't know that.
[00:35:51] Scilla Elworthy: Uh-huh. Yeah. I had four, had four elder brothers. I
[00:35:56] Susan: did not.
[00:35:56] Two
[00:35:56] Scilla Elworthy: of them, two were in the military- Okay ... and my father was in the First World War.
[00:36:00] Susan: Uh-huh.
[00:36:01] Scilla Elworthy: And very, very hardened by it.
[00:36:03] Scilla Elworthy: So I learned
[00:36:05] Susan: kind- Sorry to, to interrupt you, but when you say hardened, did he ever share or was he, uh, shut down? No. M- most people, that generation, they did not. Never. They never shared.
[00:36:17] Scilla Elworthy: And he was in the thick of it. So, um, what I learned as a, the baby of the family was, first of all, I could play up to my smallness.
[00:36:26] Scilla Elworthy: I got carried on people's shoulders, and that was nice, and things like that. Mm-hmm. But to try and answer what you're saying about women raising their voices, I, I feel that what's emerging now, and it has done over the past 20, 30 years, is sisterhood.
[00:36:45] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:36:45] Scilla Elworthy: There's a comfort of being able to rely on other women sticking their necks out- Mm-hmm
[00:36:52] Scilla Elworthy: if you do. So your courage in stating what needs to be said as bluntly as you wish, it'll have an echo, and there'll be newspaper articles, there'll be television appearances and so on. And then the other thing which we've talked about is listening, because I think it's really fair to be able to speak if you've already listened.
[00:37:22] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:37:22] Scilla Elworthy: Uh, it's a fairness.
[00:37:23] Susan: Mm.
[00:37:24] Scilla Elworthy: And then the other thing is the self-belief, and you know that. Mm. You've had to go through it.
[00:37:30] Susan: Mm.
[00:37:31] Scilla Elworthy: That if you get knocked back, if you get told you're an idiot or a nuisance or stupid or another bloody woman, you know that it's not true.
[00:37:44] Susan: Mm.
[00:37:44] Scilla Elworthy: At the very profound gut level that we have, we know that's not true.
[00:37:52] Scilla Elworthy: We know what we're standing on our feet for and raising our voices for matters.
[00:37:59] Susan: Well, can I push back on that a little bit, in that even I'm a, a fairly confident person.
[00:38:07] Scilla Elworthy: Yeah.
[00:38:07] Susan: But I can't believe sometimes how much I can lose it. And I also notice that living in what I call a patriarchal world culture that I still think is predominant, there's sort of a constant barrage, like, oh, I don't know.
[00:38:23] Susan: I'm a very good driver, Scilla, but, you know, some guy thinks that I did the wrong thing, and he immediately flashes the finger at me. You know, it's like... Or calls me a bitch, you know? It's like, because he's some... That, that kind of insult that is out there in the zeitgeist that I think a lot of us kind of, we get a steady diet of it.
[00:38:43] Susan: And I'm a sensitive person, so sometimes I have to, like... And probably all of us are sensitive people. We have to actively say, "Oh, yeah, don't take that in. Nope, boundaries. Don't take that in. That doesn't belong to you." But the need to have confidence, courage. So I guess I'm saying that sometimes I have it.
[00:39:03] Susan: On a good day, most days I have it, and then on other days, I don't. And-
[00:39:08] Scilla Elworthy: I, I think that's true for everybody. And what we benefit from so much is our sisters who are willing to stand with us-
[00:39:17] Susan: Mm-hmm ...
[00:39:18] Scilla Elworthy: and e- and lead.
[00:39:19] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:19] Scilla Elworthy: And so many of the women I've admired, in my 80s now, and the women I've admired all these years have taught me so much, in far worse conditions than I have to confront if I raise my voice.
[00:39:34] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:39:35] Scilla Elworthy: They are standing up against situations in Africa, and horrible situations in Central Europe now, and they are terrified, many of them. Absolutely terrified. Mm. But they find the courage that you're talking about Through this solidarity, through reading the stories of what other women have done, and there's quite a lot of them out there now- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
[00:40:04] Scilla Elworthy: stories and books and so on. And so I think it is changing in our favor very fast, that we feel a bit more confident as women. We don't feel, uh, you know, we're, we're told that we don't matter, so shut up and go home. You know, get back in the kitchen, all that stuff. But I do ask myself perhaps I, perhaps I was lucky.
[00:40:27] Scilla Elworthy: I was told to shut up a lot by my brothers, but they didn't-
[00:40:34] Scilla Elworthy: It didn't go in very far- Ah. ... because my mother said to me, "Remember," she was a, a very strong, very quiet, but very strong feminist. And so she coached me to not be intimidated.
[00:40:49] Susan: Yeah. Yeah, I was just reading a, I was glad to see that in China, it's an article about Chinese women saying, you know, "The heck with you," to the Chinese government trying to control their bodies, and saying they're, they're just pushing back on any of that kind of interference.
[00:41:05] Susan: But that came partially from the global Me Too thing that was just, you know, circulating, that I think women around the world are communicating with each other and saying, "Okay, this thing, this patriarchal... what I'm calling a patriarchal world culture, it's global, and we're wanting to shift it because it is connected to a more violent world, to a more oppressive world, a world where we don't have voice, and yeah, we're changing things."
[00:41:31] Susan: Um- We
[00:41:32] Scilla Elworthy: can do it. Exactly.
[00:41:33] Susan: We can do it. We can do it. Do you wanna say any particular message you want to leave with?
[00:41:41] Scilla Elworthy: I love this word courage that you introduced into the discussion, and the word courage comes from the heart, from which is coeur.
[00:41:49] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:41:50] Scilla Elworthy: So you can absolutely rely on your heart when you're in trouble.
[00:41:56] Scilla Elworthy: You know, if you get blacklisted or shouted at or stones thrown at you for what you decide to do, ask your heart. I, I, I now put my hand on my heart. Mm-hmm. My hand on my heart there, put the other hand on top of it-
[00:42:11] Susan: Mm-hmm ...
[00:42:12] Scilla Elworthy: and hold it.
[00:42:13] Susan: Mm-hmm.
[00:42:15] Scilla Elworthy: And it's enormously strengthening, and it takes away the fear.
[00:42:19] Susan: Mm.
[00:42:20] Scilla Elworthy: And yeah, you can feel it, can't you? Mm-hmm. Look at you.
[00:42:24] Susan: Yeah.
[00:42:24] Scilla Elworthy: And that, putting the heart in charge is so- It's not just bold, it's absolute common sense. 'Cause the heart knows. My heart knows what I should do much better than my brain.
[00:42:39] Susan: Mm. So you're putting the heart in charge. How do you do that? You literally are-
[00:42:45] Scilla Elworthy: Put your hand
[00:42:45] Susan: on it
[00:42:45] Susan: communing with it and then letting it lead, letting it communicate with you.
[00:42:51] Scilla Elworthy: Tell me what to do.
[00:42:52] Susan: Tell me what to do. Mm. Tell me what to do. Thank you, Sila, so much. Appreciate it so much. Thanks for listening. As always, please like and share, leave a review on the podcast if you can. And if you're interested in more on this, check out episode 31 from the Peacebuilding Podcast.
[00:43:13] Susan: I'll put the link here and in the show notes, where I did my first interview with Sila. And also, please join a community of people interested in applying collaborative hard ball skills in our Zoom conversations. We'd love to see you there. You can get more information about this on my website, susancoleman.global.
[00:43:35] Susan: See you soon.