Ep. 2 - Negotiation is Power! with Zoe Chance
TRANSCRIPT:
Susan: Hi, everyone. Thank you for joining me for episode two of the Collaborative Hardball podcast. This podcast is a kind of sequel to my earlier podcast, the Peace Building podcast from Conflict to Common Ground, in which I interviewed a lot of wonderful people. But in the course of doing that, it became really clear to me that the most impactful intervention we could undertake on this planet is to empower women to achieve true gender equality on the planet.
It's what underpins everything, uh, a proactive and creative peace, true sustainability on the planet. It's the real magilla, if you ask me. So, um, Zoe Chance is a Yale professor and the author of Influence Is Your Superpower, a book I genuinely love. It's smart, generous, and fun, and I agree with her, as she puts it, that it's kind of a cousin to collaborative hardball.
She approaches influence not as domination, but something much more humankind and expansive, something that I admire and appreciate. In many ways, she embodies what I am talking about when I'm talking about a new negotiation for women. I've never actually met Zoe in person, but, uh, I caught wind of her long ago when she took a stand for gender equality over matriarchy, which I appreciate as well.
I'm not interested in matriarchy overtaking patriarchy, but in fact, really achieving true gender equality on the planet. Um, I think, uh, it surprised both of us that in this episode, we got into talking about personal stuff really fast. I don't know, uh, but I guess that's because the personal is political, and everything starts at home.
And so we had some interesting conversations about that. I know you'll enjoy her story about bigger and better, a game that she plays with her students at Yale. Isn't it true that we teach what we need to know? Because I found myself thinking transactionally. But as she says, when, uh, we approach people in transactional ways with assumptions about what they want to do, what they can do, and we are making them small in their mind, we will never know how big they could have played.
Because there's a ton of goodwill out there in the world, and Zoe will tell you that most people are just very willing to share it to create a better world for all of us. So I bring you Zoe Chance.
How are you holding up in the middle of all... I mean, um, how's it been for you?
Zoe: Um, like, depends what it is, right? Yeah.
Susan: Yeah, yeah.
Zoe: And it's just a day by day kind of thing. And, um, at, like, at this current phase, current moment, current day, focusing on, uh, taking care of my mental health so that I can be there for other people- Mm
and so that I can actually pay attention to the news. 'Cause I had a, a big gap where I was not even able to, 'cause it was so upsetting to me.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Uh, and I'm, like, almost ready to... Like, I'm finally ready to think about maybe almost ready to start acting on doing some public commentary. Like, I was working on an op-ed and then I scrapped it, but it had been a long time-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: since I had done that. Mm. Um, 'cause I had, uh, like- personal and professional shit storm that went down that had me pull back from a lot of stuff like that.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: So, um-
Susan: Yeah ...
Zoe: yeah, yeah. And I'm gonna be moving later this year from the East Coast to the West Coast. Oh, wow. My kid is going off to college.
Susan: Wow.
Zoe: On the East Coast. But, um, yeah, that's me.
Susan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's a lot. Yeah.
Zoe: How about you? I know, like, obviously the book is huge thing going on in your life right now.
Susan: How is that? Well, that... Yeah, yeah, that and, and, uh, I mean, lookit, I am probably like you. I- I have two children, and I spent so much of my life force energy really, uh, doing a good- what I thought was a good job with them, only to have them both looking at this world and just- Mm
feeling like, wow. I mean, they're both doing really well, and they're both really... I feel like, wow, they met the moment. And-
Zoe: Mm.
Susan: But, uh, you know, and- Good job,
Zoe: mama.
Susan: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, but it's just overwhelming. And, and I did just finish reading... You know, sometimes I have to, like, work on my own, uh... I mean, I think probably all of us have to work on our ups and downs.
Like, 'cause sometimes I just feel like, okay, I'm in a good place, and then other moments it's like, this is just devastating. And, uh, uh, I did just finish reading Rebecca Solnit's latest book, which I, you know, it just was very, uh, kind of gave me more, a little bit more, "Oh, yeah. Okay, I'm not crazy." And, um-
Zoe: Mm
Susan: you know, uh, I don't know. It's, um- That's great ... I mean, when I think... Oh, go ahead.
Zoe: I haven't read anything of hers for a while, and it just is... I'm so glad you're sharing that with me, because she gives me hope and- Yeah ... inspiration and just- Yeah ... like, she touches my soul.
Susan: Yeah, yeah. She
Zoe: does. So I should check it out too.
Susan: Yeah, she really did a good job of kind of documenting What's happened over the last f- 50 years, uh, that has brought us to this place, you know? And all the good stuff, like all the good stuff. Mm-hmm. You know, all the really good stuff, and then this backlash. And I have felt like the reason that we're having this backlash is that, in fact, those of us that, who are interested in social justice and climate and issues like that, is that we are being successful.
We really are being successful, you know, maybe more successful than we give ourselves credit for. And, um, so she really affirmed that. And, um, yeah.
Zoe: Great.
Susan: Thank you. So you are such a bright star. I loved your book. I loved reading it. It just was, like, also very uplifting, and, um, a lot of beautiful stories in there.
And you, y- you just shone through, you know? Um...
Zoe: Thank you, Susan. Yeah. I, I really appreciate it, and, um, I really felt, as I was reading your book, like our, our books are siblings in this way, that we're writing about... So I'm writing about influence broadly, including some negotiation, and you're writing about negotiation, but which is really, really broad in the way that you write about it, including what I would think of as, um, yeah, just so many types of influences with the way you define it.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And people expect a book like that to be tactics and strategy focused. Mm. And for both of us, writing from the perspective, not coincidentally, of being women and feminists and having the priorities that we do, we write about, uh- in particular perspective and mindset and how you show up in these situations that I think both of us would agree is so much more important to the outcome than the specific strategies that you use.
Although you and I both write about strategies and
Susan: tools
Zoe: and all of that. Yeah,
Susan: it was hard for me to ignore, uh, and you know, when I went through the whole Getting to Yes world and all that, it was just hard for me to ignore some of the parallels that I was sensing with my own personal experience, with what's the big picture, what happens on the world stage, and, you know, which is one of the reasons I framed it as a patriarchal world culture, which I know is not always how e-everybody talks about things, but, um, it was how I chose to talk about it.
And, um,
Zoe: I really appreciate that you did, and I think that, uh, when people hear the word patriarchy, so many of them, and especially so many men, just imagine that this is an anti-men perspective, which it's totally, absolutely not, and that so many of the problems that we are in, that, you know, we were talking about at the beginning and wanting to change and the big picture, justice and climate and war, um, and who are we gonna be when we have AI having powers that people no longer have.
So many of these questions, if we answer them from within this patriarchy that we've created so far, we're gonna come up with disempowering answers. And I just appreciate that you're calling it out so specifically. Let's question that fundamental assumption of patriarchy.
Susan: Well, it's also because so much of what we all learn, we learn at home, and, uh, some of the earliest, most important learnings that happen.
I mean, for me, I grew up in a very... I mean, a great home in many respects, but also very patriarchal in many respects, and, um,
Zoe: Yeah. What was that like?
Susan: Hard. It was really great that my brother, who, uh, you know, I was-- My brother's five years older than me, and he is sort of your epitome of, hmm, white Anglo-Saxon privileged man.
And I was, you know, I, I was th- I had tried at times to really talk to him about some of the dynamics of what happened in our home, and he didn't wanna go there. Just, just very much like the way Trump... I mean, he, he's not Trump, but just the way Trump doesn't, you know, or the right wing doesn't wanna talk about things.
They wanna shut it down. If you're thinking from an authoritarian or top-down point of view, you can't take in systemic information. You can't think like, "Oh, how is a family a system, and how are the hierarchies in the family structured?" And, um, so I mean, honestly, Zoe, when I, uh, after years of therapy, I mean, I've done so much personal growth work and both professionally and, you know, uh, personally, um, you know, I, I realized that I had really been traumatized by a lot of it.
I mean, and that word is thrown around a lot, but I really... It was not easy. And so my brother read my book, which I was really grateful for. I didn't think he was gonna, but he read my book, and he wrote me a note, and he said, "I read your book, and, and I'm sorry for some of the things." I mean, not like I got into it too much in the book, but, uh, it was the first time he...
You know, I've been a- actually wanting to have a real conversation. It was the first time he really sort of acknowledged that, and, uh-
Zoe: Wow ...
Susan: so I was grateful for that. Um, I was very grateful for that. Um, because when I think about those early dynamics and then fast-forward throughout my life, y- you know, all those things set me up for everything.
And I'm not thinking, I'm not acting, you know, not, not in a victim way, but just it, it influenced everything so deeply. Um- And, you know, I saw, I would see my brother everywhere and all kind... He would show up in all kinds of forms, you know? Of, of men that I would somehow defer to or give too much power to or somehow feel like, yeah, really just give my power away to, whether they be professional men or lovers or whatever it might be.
But then over time, I really got so much stronger, and it really, it did have to, and I know I talk about this in the book, but it really had to do with, I think, it had to do with doing a lot of trauma work and really getting it out of my system. You know, what I c- call getting it out of my cell structure.
I really had to get it out to understand that I am not secondary in any way, in any way. And sometimes that comes back internally, but not so much. I, I mean, certainly comes back for you from the outside in, you know, the world sometimes sees me unlike, and now I'm, you know, I'm an older woman, I'm whatever, I'm a woman, whatever, what...
The world can do what it does. Different people see me in different ways. But I internally have r- really accessed so much of my own beauty, divinity, power that I didn't have when I was, um... Well, I always had because I was an athlete and I was feisty, you know? But, but I- But you
Zoe: didn't feel maybe as
Susan: much as
Zoe: you do now.
But I,
Susan: but I... No, and not compared to what, how his life went. I mean, I just watched how his life went. It was just like, you know, door open, this, that, da, da, da, da, da, da, you know? So
Zoe: do you see your relationship with your brother, um, shifting in the future, or do you think it's too late for that?
Susan: You know, I don't think it's ever too late for anything.
And, um, with my brother, I, I think one of the things I really value about him is that he's, uh, I don't, I think he's very loyal to me, even though we, you know, he lives, he lives in Palm Beach. He lives near Mar-a-Lago. You know, I know he voted for Trump the first time around. And when I asked him about it, he said something like, "Oh, you know, he's crazy, but he does basically the right things or something."
It's like, you know, he votes m- he votes money. He's a Wall Street dude. He's a Wall Street dude. So, but how, how about you? I mean, I, you know, how we're talking about patriarchy, we're talking about our family. Uh, how was it for you in your family of origin? Like, what did you learn about negotiation, about power?
Zoe: My parents divorced when I was little, and I spent most of my time with my mom. So she's a single mom and didn't have a lot of money at all. Moved us to a place where the schools were really great. And my friends' families had, um, like they weren't, they weren't rich in the WASPy New England sense, but they, but they were rich in the general sense where they had, um- Maybe second homes or sports cars or swimming pools or sailboats or, like, going on safari vacations and- Where,
Susan: where'd you grow up?
Zoe: In the suburbs of DC.
Susan: Okay.
Zoe: And, um, and, you know, we lived in apartments, and for a long time my sister and I shared a bedroom. My mom slept on the futon couch. Wow. And I, we didn't... We, we always had enough money to eat, so I didn't experience the kind of traumatic poverty that so many people have and are right now.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: But I experienced a keen sense of having less than other people-
Susan: Hmm ...
Zoe: and attributing that to being less worthy-
Susan: Hmm ...
Zoe: in some way.
Susan: Hmm.
Zoe: And what I saw from my mom, um, which I know from research is true of a lot of families that don't have so much money, they teach their kids self-reliance. Mm-hmm.
Where families that are more affluent are more likely to be teaching their kids, and maybe especially their boys, but teaching their children to advocate for themselves and that privilege and power are partially negotiable. And a lot of working class families or families like mine, kids are being taught, "If you work hard enough, you, like, you will be recognized- Hmm
and you will get the things that you deserved. You're wonderful. You're great. Just work, work, work." Hmm. So, um, what I developed in that system was a lot of good student habits.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Working really hard, doing what I was supposed to do, getting the good grades, and, um, I was Ah. There were threads of me that were anti-feminist-
Susan: Mm-hmm
Zoe: because my mom w- had been very active in the feminist movement in the '70s, um, and especially before I was born, and she was working in an abortion clinic and, you know, demonstrating for women's rights and things like this. And I thought, in my little world, growing up and, like, being a kid in the '80s and the '90s, that those things that feminists like my mom were still ranting about were old news.
Susan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Because I didn't perceive, say, boys in my class being treated differently from girls in my class.
Susan: Mm. Mm.
Zoe: And we were, but it was in more subtle ways.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: And, um, I felt like, of course, all of the doors are open to me. Mm. And so it wasn't until growing up and doing some more work that I was realizing how much I had internalized systems of patriarchy and unworthiness, that also came from experiencing some poverty too-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: that, um, had me not even questioning some of these differences. And the thing is, like, I, I also, Susan, feel like I'm really lucky.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And I was really lucky, and also my mom prioritized education, and I got to go to good schools and-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: good colleges and get scholarships and things like that. But I didn't blame anything outside of myself-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: for that unworthy feeling-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: for a really long time. Mm. And what you were saying about some people, like, not being willing to look at or think about systems, I don't know if they don't think about it, but some of the people who benefit from the systems that exist, I guess, don't want them to be questioned.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Right? Which is maybe very similar to not wanting to think about them. But
Susan: yeah. So what, what shifted for you? It sounds like you did at a, at some point, um, begin to s- think about some of the external things that might have been affecting you- Yeah ... in your path through life- Um, I- ... in terms of power.
I mean, specifically, I guess I'm interested, 'cause you're a very bright light. I mean, you know, like, it just... Well, I don't know if you think of yourself that way, but reading your book, it just really shines through. And, um, like, how you transcended, how you Claimed, how, did you ever feel like you were accepting crumbs?
And then how did you transcend that? And what did it take to claim yourself as a powerful person to the extent that you feel that you are or c- or do? I
Zoe: wanna hear everyone answer that question. I wanna hear a man answer that question too, non-binary people. Um, and I'm so curious how many people feel like they have gotten to the point of claiming their power if they had felt at some point like they didn't have it.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: I feel like it's something that I'm still constantly negotiating, figuring out, because it's so situational and contextual for me. Mm. Mm. So there are plenty of situations where, you know, something could happen that would trigger me now that, uh, sorry, triggered me in the past that is now just not a big deal.
Mm. Um, and plenty of negotiation-type contexts where I would've gotten just w- in a loopy situation leading up to it, so nervous, and then doing a lot of impression management during the conversation instead of, like, being in a position of having so much more power than I did when I was much younger.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: And also during those years, having a lot of practice, and then also having a lot of embodied experience-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: as a woman in this world. There's so many situations now where I can just sit there in silence.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: And, you know, something is said or done, or a question is asked, and that I have had to develop a lot of internal power to just be there, like, "Huh."
Or to just share, "Here's my... Like, this is what I need," or- Mm ... share my desire- Mm ... and then just let it be.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: And let the other person grapple with it. Mm. And to me, it symbolizes this is what having, like, being empowered feels like for me,
Susan: is being able to- Is to be able to stay connected to yourself and your own experience and not necessarily be in a reactive mode.
Zoe: Yeah. Mm. And in particular, to sit in silence, 'cause that's what- Mm ... has been so hard-
Susan: Mm-hmm ... for
Zoe: me.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Um, but then Susan, still, there are situations where I just feel like, uh, just where I just feel so small still.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And I don't know if that still happens to you, but for me, I went to a few different colleges, but the main place that I lived and took classes was Bryn Mawr College.
Being in a women's college really changed a lot of my thinking. You write about some traumatic experiences that you had with, um- that so many girls and women have that a lot of boys, but so many fewer boys and men have. And, um, the number of those experiences that many women like us have had is so much bigger than the number of those experiences that our male friends and family members have had.
And so I think that those experiences just racked up until, um It was really clear that it's really not fair.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And it really doesn't have to be this way. And then I'm learning from, um, lots of women around me at a women's college, so I felt a lot differently after that.
Susan: It's so tricky too, and I think now that younger women, um...
I was just-- A, a friend of mine has a, um, she has a, I think her daughter's 15, and, uh, in high school. And, um, and her daughter was wanting to go to school in these hot pants that were, like, looking, like, really slutty in my friend's assessment. They sounded to me like I would have thought the same thing.
Like, you could see everything, you know? Like, and she said, "You can't go to school like that." And her daughter said, "Mom, you just have no idea what's going on. You know? Like, leave me alone." You know, the way at 15, right? And so she went to school like that. And, uh, then, you know, I saw her the other day. They drove by me.
And, uh, I love this friend of mine, and I love her daughter. Um, but I, I could see that her daughter was very made up, you know, going to school. Um, and I thought, "Wow, how much is..." You know, and then you think about Epstein and what's going on with all that and just the messages that girls and women are still getting about what I would call a kind of an overarching, I mean, it's a, a big term, but rape culture.
The sense of, like, uh, a strong sense of, of, of women being in a, a, potentially subject to some kind of predation. And, um, uh, and it, that's, mm.
Zoe: Yeah, that's a really heavy frame, and it's hard to know what to do with it. I f- I find it challenging to negotiate and navigate these situations with my daughter too.
Susan: How old is she now?
Zoe: She's 17.
Susan: Okay.
Zoe: And, um, she is, as I see her, very confident, very empowered, and, um-
Susan: Good
Zoe: mommies. ... likes to... Well, n- no, it's definitely her. And, um, and she likes to look and feel beautiful. Also with my stepdaughter, who's 16.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And these girls are just amazing and beautiful. Mm-hmm. And, um, I feel that they don't know the kind of attention that they're sparking, which I think is the connection to the rape culture-
Susan: Mm-hmm
Zoe: frame that you used. And a- as a mom, I feel, and a stepmom, I feel so torn because I really want them to know that they are beautiful, and I want them to feel beautiful. B- And it's not that I think that women or girls should need to be or feel beautiful, but- they feel this. Like they, they really do feel beautiful, and I'm so happy for them to feel that way.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And regardless of what they look like, this is such an important thing for so many women and girls to feel beautiful. My dad, we're part of like, you know, pile of stuff from family, but my dad used to tell my sister and me, "You girls are lucky you're not beautiful because people will appreciate you for your mind."
Susan: Right.
Zoe: So I never want my kids, stepkids to have any feeling like that. Oh
Susan: my God, you're so beautiful.
Zoe: Yeah. If
Susan: anything.
Zoe: Like no dad should ever say this to their child. No. No. Right? Or feel this or anything. Mm-mm. And then with this idea of beauty and feminine aesthetics, which I feel like we shouldn't have to be, but there's also this, this sweetness in it that regardless of where it comes from, the beautiful parts of it, and you talked already about claiming your power and your beauty.
And so how does the... I know, I mean, this is getting far from negotiations, but it's still s- so closely related to power-
Susan: Mm-hmm ...
Zoe: in a complicated way.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: How do we want to, and want our kids and other women and girls to navigate this idea of beauty and power, and honestly, I just don't know.
Susan: Mm-hmm. Well, I agree w- with you.
I mean, if you don't know, but I agree with you. I want little girls, women to own their beauty and feel it, and feel that kind of life force energy. Uh, but it is not about the external, it's also about our own seeing it-
Zoe: Absolutely ... from the inside. And I guess like the, yes, 100%, and the part that I don't know is the, the connection with putting out sexual attraction vibes and so many younger women and girls, like, you know, we know 'cause we're older now and we've been there, we've s- and we see it, and it's easier to see like the-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: hot pants. Like, do you, um-
Yeah.
Susan: Well, this is very- It, it's kind of- Um, this is funny that I come back to my brother, but I think in my own life story, those early experiences of not being able to have, um, control over boundaries really affected me as I went out into the world. Yeah. And made me feel, expect a certain kind of dynamic that was not to my benefit And I think that little girls, if they learn about those boundaries, and they learn about their beauty, and they learn what is okay with them, they don't have to analyze it, they just have to feel it.
If they know that, they are not as likely to get preyed on, be subject to manipulation. And it is a source of our power, and I don't wanna give it up. I mean, but, and I, and, uh-
Zoe: Yeah. Well.
Susan: So I have a question for you. I wanna- Yeah ... to shift, which is re- it's gonna be related, but, um, uh, because yeah, it's interesting we've gone into this conversation.
But, you know, I wrote this book for a lot of reasons, but with an assumption that when we really do have gender equality, we will have a different kind of planet. We will have a more, what I like to say, proactively peaceful, creatively peaceful planet, and I think there's a lot of research to back me up.
We will have a more sustainable planet, and I think there's a lot of research to back me up. I'm sure plenty of people would argue with me about these things, but I think there's also-
Zoe: Your book is very well-researched, and that's one of the aspects I really appreciated about it.
Susan: Awesome. That's great coming from you.
Thank you. I'm so glad. Um, so I'm gonna use one of your c- your phrases here, what will it take? You know, I like that phrase. What would it take? If you had to narrow it down to three things, what would it take for women to use negotiation and influence to really shift the balance, to shift so that we really move into a more gender equal world?
Is that a fair question?
Zoe: Well, I mean, you and I are working on it, right? Mm-hmm. We're really working on it. We are working on empowering, empowering women and empowering people to work toward this. So I love doing leadership work with women, and I love doing leadership work with men- Mm-hmm ... and mixed groups, and I'm not at all strictly focused on working with women.
And I've-- my perspective is when I teach this and talk about it and work with people, I just assume that men are allies in this. And I know that you're never saying women, not men. You're speaking primarily to women, and when you're talking about the patriarchy, you're talking about the system. So I know that a big part of the work that we need to do and want to do as women does involve reaching out to and bringing in men as our allies, and we have so many male allies who are there just waiting to be Asked or waiting to have some of this information shared, like your book that's so well-researched, and because it's you, your brother reads it, and now he doesn't just understand you better, but he has so much information that he didn't have before.
And it sounds like in your brief expression of his reaction to it, like he wasn't resistant to it.
Susan: Yeah, I don't, I don't know. I don't think so. I think he, he read it.
Zoe: Yeah. And one of the big questions for me in working with men is If you embrace the ideals of feminism, whether you call yourself a feminist or not, and I think, honestly, I think the frame of feminist was a very unfortunate frame because what we're really talking about is gender equality.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Like you said. Mm-hmm. So we should have a better frame-
Susan: Mm-hmm ...
Zoe: for gender equality than feminist.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: But if you embrace that- Yeah ... then the question is what are you doing? So how do you put that into practice?
Susan: Yeah.
Zoe: Where does that evidence show up in your life? Mm-hmm. If you embrace social justice, if you embrace equality in whatever ways you embrace it, how does that show up?
And I think you and I, we teach it, we preach it, and we practice it. And all of these ideas and skills that you share in your book, same for me, what, what we teach, what we do, what we write about, these are so easily shareable.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: The practice is also simple. It's just not easy. Mm. It can feel quite difficult.
Mm. But they're so easily shareable. Mm. And so when we walk the talk, and then we also share these ideas, we're like, we're doing this. Mm. And I guess the Rebecca Solnit book is probably some of the evidence-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: that the long, long arm of history, although we're having a very difficult blip right now, like, the long arm of it-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: is really going in the positive direction. Mm. What do you think? What's your take on it?
Susan: Well, you know, it, it's always a question of like, uh, the reason that I center women, and I, I've, I've worked all over the world, I've worked always with men and women and really enjoy that and, uh, but I did with this, with this book and, uh, focus, I mean, there are many men that have read it, and I have many...
I, I feel, sometimes I feel like men have an easier time being allies. I mean, it's less complicated in some ways. The, the men that are around me, they're just enlightened, and it's a relief for so many of them to have gender equality. You know, it's like-
Zoe: Yeah ... "Ah,
Susan: yes." Um- Yeah ... but I, the reason that I do center women is because I think, and maybe it's, maybe it's my generation, but so many of us are so primed to take care of men and to enable them and to give our power away to them subtly and not so subtly.
And, and so sometimes, um, when I'm in mixed groups, which I love doing both mixed groups and... But, but sometimes when women are just by themselves, they have to really own up or really see the ways that they are powerful, and they cannot defer to a male authority, uh, or they can't enable a man to take care of themselves, um, to take care of them, sorry.
Zoe: Yeah. There's so much work that women uniquely have to do and so many gifts that women uniquely can offer. And same for men, but I love that you center women and so many people need to do that.
Susan: I wonder, 'cause I don't want, I don't wanna alienate... Listen, I feel like men have been so harmed by patriarchy because it's basically- Yeah
about, you know, creating a war system and with, you know, honing them so they can be little soldiers and, oh God, the ways that it cuts them in half and takes away their soul and there's so many, so many ways that it harms them. Yeah. But that's not, you know. And,
Zoe: and I, I believe so many people need to center men as well, and often it's men who are best equipped to do that.
Often it's women who are best equipped to center women, right? Yeah. I'm one hundred percent behind the work that you do in working with everybody regardless of gender and also centering women. And with negotiations in particular, I'm wondering, when I teach mixed groups and when I teach negotiations... So when I teach mixed groups, there's lots of excitement and conversation.
When I teach negotiations or when I teach a group of women in a leadership program, there's even more excitement and dialogue and conversation. And then when I teach a group of women specifically on negotiations, there is so much excitement, there's so much dialogue, there's so much that needs to be said that we literally never get through the slides that I've prepared.
Susan: Wow. So what do you, what do you make of that? That's in- that's a really-
Zoe: What I make of it is people perceive that there is so much power to be gained- Yeah ... from learning and understanding about negotiations. Mm-hmm. That people bring so much baggage and fear and expectations and s- ideas that other people are gonna be out to get them-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: in this context.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: And then this is multiplied when it's women. And, you know, you know from your research and teaching, and me too, that women are just much less likely to embrace negotiation than men are. Like, I've-- in my research, you know, the numbers are 17% of women like or love negotiating, and 43% of men like or love negotiating.
And- Mm ... all that this tells you is that women are much less likely to do it. Then when I ask people, "When you're negotiating, do you wanna try to get everything that you can, or do you wanna just try to not be a sucker?" Eighty percent of people, both genders, are like, "I just wanna not be a sucker." But we have this expectation, and then especially women have an expectation of the other party showing up to try to get everything that they can.
Mm-hmm. And the dynamic that I teach about and the dynamic that you're writing about is, first of all, embracing this is not actually how people are, and then creating a world where we can have more of these conversations and negotiations where it just doesn't have to go that way. But if we both show up thinking- This person is gonna try to get everything they can.
We can create so much conflict.
Susan: Mm. Mm.
Zoe: It just didn't have to be there-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: in the first place.
Susan: Yeah, I think that's been one of my biggest experiences over the years, is actually so many women going, "Ah, wow, this, this is a, a, a, a incredible way of approaching this. This is so much more organic." What I'm talking about is more of a collaborative style.
"This is so much more organic to me." And yet I named this book Collaborative Hardball because I do think that sometimes there's a tendency to, um, defer, you know, or to, to accommodate, uh, in our- Yeah ... in our gender. That- Yeah, so
Zoe: talk about the hardball part of it a bit.
Susan: Well, I mean, it was just a word, but it was kind of like a, a When I think about collaborative hardball, I'm basically saying it's the counterforce to patriarchy.
It's, it's the counterforce, and we're not taking no for an answer. It's like this authoritarianism movement that's happening, it, it, it's not gonna work. You can't have gender equality in that kind of a system. Uh, you can't have a lot of kind of equality in that kind of a system, and you can't have a climate.
I mean, you can't have, uh, nature be, you know, or understand that we are a part of nature and understand that we are in a desperate situation right now around the natural world because we don't incorporate nature. Um, so it's, it, it, it had the element of we're not taking no for an answer. We have got to shift this.
We have to think systemically. We have to think relationally. We have to think about caring. We have to think about people's, uh, dignity and respect. Um, we have to think about meeting people's needs. We have to think about not dismissing people because they want to embrace more of an emotional way of interacting.
So I think it's more like a, it's, it's more like a, a stance. It's more like a, we're not taking no for an answer. We are moving forward to a more just and equal world. Um-
Zoe: Yeah ...
Susan: is kinda how I, why, why I framed it that way, just I, I don't know. I'd been using the phrase for a while, and this friend of mine said, "You just ought to call the book that.
Call it, call the book..." I was like, "Oh, okay. I'll just do that. Why not?" You know, set up a catchy phrase and, um, but it is a problem though that so many women, you know, when I, you know, talk about a new negot- or when I use the word negotiation, I think so many women don't even see themselves inside the word negotiation.
Zoe: Yeah.
Susan: Um-
Zoe: Yeah, so what is a negotiation to you?
Susan: Well, it's really any time anybody's trying to influence another person, really. Or, and, and, and it usually, uh, to me, usually is in the frame of some kind of a, it does have conflict. I mean, it could be an exchange, but there's, the way I talk, write it, write about it in the book, it's somebody wants one thing, and somebody else wants something else, so there is more of a conflict.
And they have to figure out how to work it out. That's from little things, I mean, as I say, from the, the bedroom all the way to the boardroom to the feast table, you know? Those kind, those kind of things are happening all the time, and, um- Yeah. So it's a, it's a much broader definition than I think generally people think of negotiation.
They think of it as like a bargaining thing.
Zoe: Right.
Susan: Just it is that, but it's way more than that.
Zoe: And easily think of it in relation to business or money-
Susan: Right ...
Zoe: specifically.
Susan: Right, right.
Zoe: Yeah.
Susan: But I mean, sex is a, is a negotiation, you know, and, uh, a big one, you know? And, and I think a lot of women are, can be very accommodating, you know, and not really- Yeah
stand up for what would give them a lot of pleasure. And then maybe they do, you know, whatever, and, and on and on and on. So it's applying the concepts of really paying attention to, um, what your real needs are, and what the other side's needs are, and, and don't just assume that you can't actually find a way, a creative way that you can, you can really meet them.
You can really... And sometimes you can't meet them, but you can preserve the relationship, you know? And-
Zoe: Yeah. And you won't meet them if you don't know what they are, right? Yeah. If you don't know what your needs and your desires are-
Susan: Yeah ...
Zoe: and if you've been in the habit of accommodation-
Susan: Yeah ...
Zoe: for so long, the way to survive in accommodation mode is to suppress those needs and desires in the first place.
Susan: Yeah. So, um, yeah, I mean, I'll come back to the big picture thing that's going on. You know, there's a lot of power sloshing around and out there in the world and, uh- Yeah ... a lot of, um, certainly people trying to grab it, um, whether they be tech bros or, you know, uh... All kinds of people. I don't think it's a done deal, whatever's happening for our...
I think there's a fight, there's a negotiation, if you want to call it, that going on for our future. And I do think that, uh, women standing into, fully, fully stepping up into our power can really make a difference. And I don't know if you can go with that, with that, but I think you could go with that. If you can go with that, what stands out to you as the most important message to say to them, to say to us about how to use ourselves to, you know, be part of how we want to deal with our struggle for the future?
Zoe: What you're talking about already resonates so much with me about the first step of this being to dream big.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: And the biggest way that we are blocked from being as powerful and influential as we could be is that we don't even imagine what that grand vision or perfect world could look like. And if we don't know what the perfect world could look like, then we don't know what the baby steps and the giant leaps are to get there.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Um, I, I wrote about in my book just an example of this that I use for class is when I have students play a game called Bigger and Better- Yeah ... where they start with a paperclip, trade up with something bigger, better, bigger. Yeah, I love that. I know that story. Mm-hmm. Yeah. So they come back a week later with whatever is their biggest, best thing, and they've gotten some things that are quite large like, um, like a king-size mattress or like a giant statue of Anubis or like somebody brought a tree.
And then the most dramatic thing that somebody showed up with in the classroom was nothing, and they said, "So, hey, could you bring the class outside?" So we go out to the front of the building, and there's a Volkswagen Jetta that says Bigger and Better across the windshield, and what this symbolizes to me is how much we don't dream.
Mm. Because who looks at a paperclip And sees a car. And the paperclip was traded up 10 times with business owners in our hometown of New Haven, Connecticut between a Monday and a Thursday. And the students who were doing the trades, they had the grand vision of-
Susan: I didn't completely understand that. So somebody has a paperclip, and they go to somebody else and they say, "I'll trade you-" Would
Zoe: you trade me for something bigger and better?
Susan: But why would the other person do it?
Zoe: That is the question that has us play small.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: Because people, mm-hmm. So, so, so many people are holding back and thinking, "Why would this person be open to this thing that I'm hoping that they might do or say yes to or participate in?" Mm-hmm. And we make all of these assumptions where...
So Manus and Tom didn't think they're gonna get a car, right? Yeah. But they have this grand dream, and they're ready. They're motivated, and they're ready to call every car dealership in Connecticut by the time they get to this penultimate trade. They had this painting that was supposedly valued at 20, I mean, this expensive camera, $500.
Let's break it down
Susan: again. So let's break it down again. Yeah. So they had, they had a paperclip, and they went to somebody and they said, "Would you trade me for something-"
Zoe: Bigger and better.
Susan: Bigger and be- bigger and better. And what happened? What did somebody... Do you know what the next thing that happened was?
So,
Zoe: um, in their particular situation, I think that the next, the first thing that they traded it up for was a cupcake.
Susan: And somebody gave them, "Yeah, sure, I'll give you a cupcake. You can get a
Zoe: paperclip." Yeah,
Susan: and we
Zoe: have a bakery.
Susan: Yeah. And, and- And
Zoe: so they walk in, and they have, you know, a big grin on their face.
And they explain, "This is the game we're playing. Mm-hmm. You know, we're students. We're playing this game. This is what we have, and this is what we're trying to trade up for. So you don't have to do this as part of the game," but they painted their grand vision, and they told people that they're trying to trade up for a car.
Susan: Okay.
Zoe: And it's exciting.
Susan: Yeah.
Zoe: And so it's weird, it's silly, it's motivating. You have, you have a bakery with lots of cupcakes. You're probably throwing cupcakes away at the end of the day. For sure. So it's really not a big deal.
Susan: Yeah.
Zoe: You trade them for a cupcake, and they're trading up for things that are bigger and better, bigger and better.
And in this situation, people are excited to be part of the game. And they're painting this vision that has people want to collaborate, and they want to come and be part of that team.
Susan: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Zoe: And so they end up trading, um, I think the thing before the painting was an expensive piece of camera equipment, and, um, that was traded for cologne and some other stuff along the way.
So you have the painting, and it, they're ready to call the car dealerships.
Susan: Mm-hmm.
Zoe: The number of car dealerships they had to call was one. They call one car dealership in our town. The sales manager, Caroline Heffernan, picks up the phone, and they share their grand vision with her. They explain the game, and she's excited to play, and she's excited to be able to donate a car.
Sh- this isn't even the first time that she's done it. It's not the first car she's given away.
Susan: But
Zoe: how would we imagine? Like, we think of car, especially car salespeople, as being the most icky, greedy, grumpy, lying, manipulative, like, gross influencers.
Susan: Right. Right.
Zoe: And when we have that expectation with a negotiation or influence situation, when we walk in with those kinds of expectations of other people, it's much more likely that we will get confirming evidence, right?
Mm-hmm. So they call Caroline. She says yes. She comes when, um, she comes to our class. She meets us 'cause I invited her. She's so honored-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: to get to be part of this. And part of the big vision here is that they didn't want and couldn't u- use a car for themselves, and they were donating it to a refugee family-
Susan: Mm
Zoe: through an organization here in our town. And a mom from Afghanistan- Mm ... came to school to pick up the car, and she got to spend more time with her family instead of taking the bus two hours to get to the factory- Mm ... where she worked, although she was trained as an accountant in Afghanistan. And-
Susan: Wow ...
Zoe: this big dream, it's beautiful.
It is win-win for everybody, including the car dealership. And here I am, like, now this is a few years later, and I'm telling you, like, this is, this is the person, car dealership, um, Unique Auto, by the way. But she wasn't doing it to sell cars.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: She was doing it because she could, and she wanted to, and she had the wish and the desire to be part of something big and beautiful and inspiring- Yeah
just like all of us do.
Susan: Right.
Zoe: So that's how we hold ourselves back, in my opinion, right? Yeah. Like, like I share this one story, but there's so many other-
Susan: Mm ...
Zoe: stories like this. Um, another professor reached out to me reading the book to show me what his students had traded for, and one of them traded up from a paperclip to a horse.
Um, and the... What was the horse's name? It had a funny name. Another student this year in my class traded up for a diamond ring.
Susan: Mm.
Zoe: Like, it's, the bigger and better exercise just exemplifies- There's so much goodwill in the world that is waiting to be tapped and inspired
Susan: by
Zoe: people who have big, bold ideas.
And when we approach people in a transactional way with assumptions about what they want to do, what they can do, and we are making them small in their mind, we will never know how big they could have played.
Susan: That's beautiful. That's beautiful, and, uh, probably a great place to punctuate that because, um, you know, great message, uh, to everyone, and to women particularly, and, but to everyone in terms of how the assumptions that we're making that might make us play small, um, when really there's a lot of thinking big that can shift things.
Um, so Zoe, uh, I really... To everyone listening, I, if you haven't read her book, I really recommend it. It's really fun and, and insightful, and it was good for me to read it. You know, I was just, uh... So thank you for that. And, um, is there anything that you want to say to anyone who might want to reach out to you or, uh, I don't know, anything?
Zoe: Um, thank you. So the book is called Influence Is Your Superpower, and, um, Susan, you and I connect also in our passion about the climate, and I donate half my profits from this book to climate-focused causes. Um, what I believe is that whatever it is that we might learn on our journey of empowerment, let's find one person to teach it to.
Mm. So that's the challenge- Mm ... that I want to leave people with. If there's one insight or idea that came to you in this conversation, something that Susan said, something that I said, or something that just popped into your mind, how can you put it into action, and who can you teach it to? And absolutely, absolutely read Collaborative Hardball.
It's inspiring. It's insightful. It will make you feel smart, and it will empower you to do great things in the world- Mm ... and give you the juice to have those big ideas and big dreams.
Susan: Thank you so much. All right. Thanks. Well, I hope we get to see each other again somewhere along the way, and thank you again for your time.
Zoe: Thank you, Susan. Great to see you and talk to
Susan: you. Bye-bye.